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Tuesday, September 04, 2007

An Update and My First Controversial Blog Post

Thanks for all the kind thoughts about my Dad.

Hope everyone had a nice Labor Day Weekend.
I'm sorry I haven't had a chance to respond to alot of the emails I've received as of late.
It's been a bit crazy over here in the Cowboy State with 50-hour work weeks, finishing up the huge time suck that is our front yard, and spending a lot of time on the phone with family back home.
Will hopefully be able to respond to everyone this week.
Thanks again for all the kind thoughts.
Tomorrow my Dad sees another oncologist in Boston and we should receive some definitive word on treatment.
The wait continues.
Now, on to the controversy that I've purposely decided to blog on today.
Many of you have heard about the Dover, PA Trial concerning the teaching of Intelligent Design or ID for short. The official name of the trial was Kitzmiller, et al v. Dover School District, et al.
I can hear the groans already. You're quickly reaching for the mouse, apt to click on to greener pastures in cyberspace.
One groan I imagine goes like this...
"Drew, why even bring this tired topic up, this ID thing in the first place? That issue is so 2005! What's the point? The Dover Trial was a victory for science! Let it lie!"
Well, believe me, I would love to let it lie. I would be more than happy to let it lie if I didn't think science and the scientific method in particular was under attack and being misrepresented yet again since the trial concluded.
Here's my side of the story...
I had a conversation a few weeks back with some very well meaning, cordial, nice, and highly educated people. These people I talked with believe wholeheartedly that the earth is only 6,000 years old based on the book of Genesis in the protestant Bible and geological evidence that proves the validity of the flood described in said book.
And I've been thinking about this conversation for many weeks now, not knowing quite how to deal with the unease I felt at what transpired.


I will refrain from naming any of the people I talked with on this subject. The discussion was civil, and as mentioned the people involved were extremely nice.
I don't have a problem with people believing what they want to believe. I have no more control over that than I do trying to prevent Bose Acoustic Tsunami Car Stereos being sandblasted onto my eardrums at routine traffic stops.
I know, I can just hear my wife over my shoulder saying, "Gettin' old there, Drew! Complaining about loud stereos. What's next? IHOP's not serving you dinner at 3:00pm?"
Har har.
People are for the most part going to believe what they want to believe, plain and simple.
Me included...with the caveat that if scientific data show me that I am wrong on a certain belief, I hope I am open to a reinterpretation of my old belief system. I think that I am.
In a way, that's what Albert Einstein had to do with his struggle to reconcile Newtonian physics with his physics of Special and General Relativity. And then further, he had to come to grips with the very unorthodox and messy world of Quantum Physics, which he hated.
By the way, how Einstein came to publish his results on Special and General Relativity is a fascinating story and one that, in my mind, is on par with any story put forth in the Bible, or any of the great literature books of the past 5,000 years for that matter.
Interested?
There is a wonderful PBS NOVA special on just such a story. It's entitled, Einstein's Big Idea, and it will change the way you view science, if you already don't exhibit wonder and awe each week at how science progresses our understanding of the entire universe.
Sorry, now back to the conversation.
The thing that really bothered me about the whole discussion I had was that science, and more specifically, the scientific method, was being grossly misrepresented and villified. I wasn't sure of this misrepresentation or villification at the time, as I hadn't read any of the papers cited by these individuals as proof that the Earth is of aforementioned date.
I voiced doubts about some of the findings in these papers, but for the most part I just listened.
After the discussion, I went home and looked up some of these papers that were cited during the conversation. None were peer-reviewed papers in scientific journals.
All of the evidence put forth for a 6,000 year old Earth came from mainly two sources, Answers in Genesis and the Institute for Creation Research, think tanks for the theory of Intelligent Design.
These sites do a very good job of making it LOOK like the papers they publish are scientific research. But in the end, all of the papers are not subjected to the same kind of scrutiny that a normal scientific paper sent to a respected scientific journal like Science or Nature would be.
One of the most beautiful, yet ruthless aspects of science is having other scientists from other educational institutions get a crack at trying to see whether what you have found actually agrees with the current body of scientific knowledge and whether you carried out your experiments correctly using correct methodology. In essence, peer-review.
Think red ink all over your 10th Grade english essays, but on steroids!
Not going through this process is at best, disingenuous, and worst, deceitful.
In essence, the papers that were cited to me completely circumvented the scientific method.
Not a good thing!
If you have a hypothesis about how a particular observable aspect in nature works, you test that hypothesis with a set of experiments. You collect your data. You analyze your data. You write up a paper describing in detail what you did and the conclusions you derived from the data you collected. Then, if you want to complete the process to make everyone aware of your work, you publish in a peer-reviewed journal like Science or Nature or any one of the 1000’s of other journals out there. It is this last stage where your peers doing research in your area have a chance to critique your work and make sure your conclusions are accurate with the data you present.
An example of this peer-review circumvention is located at the Answers in Genesis site. The article entitled, “Radioactive ‘dating’ failure” by Andrew Snelling appears on the site and can be viewed by clicking here.
Reading through this article, it all looks very scientific; charts, graphs, equations, discussion, conclusions. However, if you look closely at all the references and links to other pages cited within the article, you find no evidence of the research being subjected to peer-review at a respected scientific journal.
PLEASE, and I mean this in all sincerety, if I am wrong on this, Intelligent Design Theorists, show me where I can find peer-reviewed articles of original research done that backs up these claims of radioactive dating failures of the sort purported in the aforementioned Snelling article.
I really would like to see some of these articles if they do exist.
For the record, regarding the claims put forth in the aforementioned article, geologists are well aware of the problems with K/Ar dating of recent volcanic flows.
They acknowledge these problems by using an alternative Argon40/Argon39 (Ar40/Ar39) dating method to account for the excess Argon that is known to exist in these recent volcanic flows. Had the author of this paper submitted his paper for peer-review he might have been able to, at the very least, address this in his discussion, or at best, test his samples using this more reliable dating method.
Now I'm not so shortsighted to think that this lack of peer-review is the case with everything that the Intelligent Design theorists have put out. I could be missing something here in my cursory research of both the Answers in Genesis and ICR sites. I ask with sincerety for those who know of peer-review papers concerning ID that exist to post them to this blog site.
I would very much like to see them.
Think I will end it here for tonight.
Thanks for reading this very long and controversial blog.
Would love to hear any and all comments.
Drew

11 comments:

Anonymous said...

it is really important to tell these people in an impolite way that they are full of ****. i mean really. they like to lie to themselves. and to think about all the benefits they get from science every day-it makes me angry.

funny cartoon...
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/07/too_true.php

sorry about your dad drew. good thoughts your way.

Anonymous said...

Your post reminds me of a show that I watched in Pennsylvania that was always good for a laugh. It was called Origins (www.origins.org) and it was all about disproving natural selection. Unfortunately they had the same 5 guys talk about all possible subjects.
If creationists are confident in their methods and results, they should expose it to peer-review, not just public review on the internet. They often have good reasoning skills, but there is little scientific support. To which they always respond, "Science isn't correct."

Drew Mather said...

Thanks for your posts, Scoot and Dauer!

Let's keep the drum roll going for science and the scientific method.

Appreciate the support.

Anonymous said...

you might enjoy this song :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIwiPsgRrOs

The Waffler said...

Time for your mandatory irrelevant blog comment...

Answer your work phone!

Drew Mather said...

That's brilliant satire, scoot!

Ray Zimmerman will stay on my You Tube subscription list from now on.

Good stuff!

Anonymous said...

I hate to sound like a snob here, but are these people really worth arguing with?

A few oibservations:

1. They likely have no influence themselves (although, in large numbers, they do).

2. You will never convince them. They are emotionally invested in their psueodscience, and cognitive psychology shows that when this is the case, there is no chance of convincing people: "In a moral argument, we expect the successful rebuttal of an opponent’s arguments to change the opponent’s mind. Such a belief is like thinking that forcing a dog’s tail to wag by moving it with your hand will make the dog happy.”

http://faculty.virginia.edu/haidtlab/articles/haidt.emotionaldog.manuscript.pdf

Could there be any more depressing waste of a scientist's time than trying to convince biased, ignorant outsiders of the basic precepts of the scientific method? Especially when they are foolish enough (and yes, that's the right word) to accord some flyblown pastor more authority on this point than an actual scientist?

Nevertheless, if you really want to engage them, I would suggest the following: agree with them wnthusiastically all the way down the line, then, at the end, point out that using exactly the same techniques, you can (and people do!) deny that the Holocaust ever happened. Express relief and gratitude that you've finally found people who think like you. When they protest that they do actually beliebe the Holocaust happened, express bewilderment and confusion that they could accept one way of thinking about these issues in one context, but then reject it in another.

Gets them thinking.

Keep up the good work, and I'll keep my fingers crossed for your father--

A

Anonymous said...

Oops, I wanted to link to an interesting article on bias and motivated reasoning, but the machine cut off my link.

Anyway, it's by Jonathan Haidt, a psychologist at the University of Virginia, and it's the first result when you type in "jonathan haidt tail dog" in Google.

And yes, it was published in a peer-reviewed journal...

A

Drew Mather said...

Thanks very much, A, for the comments and suggestions. I agree. To a certain extent it is a waste of precious time. But, in a way, it does help me solidify my own positions on the subjects that matter most to me, as well as sharpens my ability to debate these pseudoscientific claims. I enjoyed your counter approach. I also appreciate the Haidt article. Will definitely check that out! Thanks for checking in to the blog and I appreciate the kind thoughts for my father.

Anonymous said...

Some choose astirisks...some choose CAPS....INDULGE ME !

JESUS CHRIST, SAVIOR, SON OF GOD SAVIOR OF (FOR)THE ENTIRE WORLD, CREATOR OF THE WHOLE WORLD, THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA....AMEN !

NOT SURE YOU WILL FIND THAT IN A PEER-REVIEWED JOURNAL.....

NOR WILL YOU FIND, A DEFINITIVE : TESTABLE, REPEATABLE , FALCIFIABLE EXPERIMENT , WHICH PROVES EVOLUTION.

SHOULD THERE BE ONE....ALL NINE COMMENTS WOULD BE SURPURFOLOUS sp very sorry....FOR YOU WOULD BE QUOTING THE QUOTE " 'SO-CALLED' EVOLUTION PROOF EXPERIMENT, AND I WOULD BE LISTENING, I LISTEN TO EVERY WORD THE NEO-DARWINISTS PREACH, SWARE BY, AND BELIEVE.

May I suggest for your consideration a book called HOW MY MIND HAS CHANGED from the 60's...

Were time to permit I would very much like to interview all of you in about 50 years.....EVERYONE WILL SWARE THEIR OPINION WILL BE THE EXACT SAME THING...I WONDER ?

Godspeed, and please keep digging for the ultimate truth of the universe....there is ultimate truth in this universe...I believe...should I have that right ?

I have not found it in Darwin-I have found much to praise in Darwin, little I believe could be proven with his DECENT OF MAN SUGGESTIONS....

I like you,
am still looking, but I do not call anyone names...but I do have a question ?

Your comment please: SOME SAY THE DOVER TRIAL PROVED THAT THE ACLU IS FOR PRONOGRAPHY FOR STUDENTS ( YOUR STUDENTS ) ! FILTH IN YOUR STUDENTS LIBRARY ! GRAPHIC SEX IN YOUR LIBRARY ! ANY HUMAN ACT NATURAL, UNNATURAL, QUESTIONABLE FOR SOME AGES.....H.O.W.E.V.E.R ( PLEASE LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY, ANSWER THE QUESTION ) IF YOUR STUDENT WANTS TO LOOK AT SOME OF THE VERY WELL KNOWN BETWEEN SCIENTISTS PROBLEMS WITH EVOLUTION....HE MAY NOT GO TO THAT SAME LIBRARY AND CHECK OUT OR READ A BOOK THAT DISCUSSES THOSE WELL KNOWN PROBLEMS.....REMEMEMBER THE BOOK WAS NOT ATTACKED !!!!!!

I PRAY I AM WRONG ON THAT !! JUST YOUR CHILDS RIGHT TO LOOK AT A BOOK IN THE LIBRARY....PLEASE TELL ME YOU HAVE READ THAT BOOK THAT CAUSED SUCH A CONTROVERSY....AND IT IS NOT PEER REVIEWED....AND IT IS FALSE. I SHALL BE LISTENING.

THANK YOU FOR LISTENING. SHALOME

At about 10 years of age I saw a movie that contained these words :
WE LIVE BY BRAINS, NOT BY BRAWN !

I liked that quote, I hope you do also.

Drew Mather said...

Thank you for your comment, anonymous.

It's good to get the other side of this debate represented here.

I would like to address some of your comments.

Regarding the first:

"JESUS CHRIST, SAVIOR, SON OF GOD SAVIOR OF (FOR)THE ENTIRE WORLD, CREATOR OF THE WHOLE WORLD, THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA....AMEN !

NOT SURE YOU WILL FIND THAT IN A PEER-REVIEWED JOURNAL....."

I don't believe anyone has said that anything or anyone of a metaphysical nature belongs in a peer-reviewed journal. Science has and as far as I can tell always should remain a way to interpret the natural world. As soon as it steps into the supernatural it loses credibility and legitimacy.

Regarding your second:

"NOR WILL YOU FIND, A DEFINITIVE : TESTABLE, REPEATABLE , FALCIFIABLE EXPERIMENT , WHICH PROVES EVOLUTION."

I guess first I need to be clear on my definition of evolution.

If we are talking about natural selection and living organisms sharing common ancestors, the two main thrusts of the theory of evolution, then yes, there are ways to test this theory to see if it holds up under the scientific method.

Bacteria and viruses developing drug resistance is a classic example of the first and can be shown again and again to hold true in the laboratory.

Genetic analyses of organic life forms on earth show identical DNA base pairs from the extremophiles at hydrothermal vents at the bottom of the ocean to homosapiens sipping lattes at the local Starbucks. Genes that code for a number of basic life giving tasks such as keeping the helical morphology of the DNA molecule helical are found in all organic life forms on Earth. This simple fact should give us all pause and make us marvel at the beauty of how we are all related to all life forms on planet Earth. I feel a part of the grand scheme of things as it were when I ponder the theory that all things on earth share a common ancestor.

Regarding your third:

"May I suggest for your consideration a book called HOW MY MIND HAS CHANGED from the 60's...

Were time to permit I would very much like to interview all of you in about 50 years.....EVERYONE WILL SWARE THEIR OPINION WILL BE THE EXACT SAME THING...I WONDER ?"

I think your premise is that people who believe in evolution have made up their mind that the theory is airtight and can not evolve if I could use that term.

I think anyone who truly understands the nature of science and the scientific method knows that to take such an unwavering position is not only foolish, but demonstrating a gross misunderstanding of how science works.

I don't think I nor any of the people who have commented thus far would say that their minds are closed to the idea of science developing further and having more to say about the theories that we believe to be true today.

I am sure Newton if he were here today would be ready, willing, and able to accept that some of his most cherished theories on gravity had to be reworked after Einstein's 1905 paper on general relativity.

And I am quite sure that by the time I am old, if I am so lucky to have a long life, there will be discoveries made in science that will cause me to change my mind on a number of subjects.

I don't pretend that science and the scientific method is a static force. Quite the contrary. It is plastic, moveable, shakeable, and made to be held up to scrutiny.

However, regarding the theory of evolution, as the evidence stands currently, it is such a powerful theory and one that has shown to have such explanatory force for a wide variety of natural phenomena, that I think it will only be strengthened with the passage of time and further discoveries.

I have read a large portion of that book you suggested. The thrust of the book are essays from Christian leaders/believers that weren't always believers or, if they were, believed in a deeper way based upon certain life experiences that occurred to each one. Not a bad book for those wanting their faith strengthened.

However, for those who don't share a faith in a supernatural being or who feel that faith is unnecessary to live out a meaningful existence on the planet, I think other books might serve them better.

As for your last comment on the book (and I am assuming here)"Of Pandas and People", I think if a child wants to read this book they should be allowed.

The question is whether it belongs in a science class, and if, in that class, it should be discussed. I personally don't think this book is a good science textbook and therefore I believe it doesn't belong in a science class. Other classes that might deal with the history of science or controversies in science may want to have this as a cornerstone on the history of the ID/evolution debate.

My contention is that there is so little time to prepare our children for the world ahead of them. They have to take in monumental amounts of information and synthesize it quickly to be successful in today's world.

Whether the ID people want to admit or not, the theory of evolution is the predominant theory in biology as to how organisms got to be what and who they are. It does not speak to the origins of the life itself. It only speaks to the point at which life began and then takes it from there.

You can substitute in your supernatural being of choice to take care of the before part of the equation. Science has not figured this out yet, and there is a good chance that it may never.

If ID people want science classes to teach an alternate theory of how life got to be what it is today, then they need to go through the scientific method of showing an alternative explanation ,not hiding behind non peer-reviewd journals in their niche institutes of creation science/ID.

In the meantime, we need to be preparing our children for the world in which they will inhabit upon graduation from high school, college, and graduate school.

And that world is a world of science. Without a proper understanding of the theory of evolution, they will be at a distinct disadvantage for understanding a great many concepts in biology and the rest of science. Do we really need to keep this debate up, or should we be pouring our energies in making sure our children truly understand evolutionary theory and the beauty of science and the scientific method.

I choose the latter.

As for the quote, can't argue there. Our brains do dictate every action we take here on the planet, including acts of aggression, as well as passivity.

Here's hoping we can all use our brains to make this world a better place for our children and our children's children.

I hope you share my hope.

Again, thanks for posting and checking out the blog. I appreciate all the comments I receive, both negative and positive.